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it’s amazing how emotional this election is for everyone. Check out this article that talks about the rise of abortion the past four years. I’m not sure I buy the whole argument, but it’s interesting.

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Ok, so I’ve been smugly told that if I don’t vote “don’t even START to complain.” So I’ve been thinking about possibly voting, just to complain. I’ve been told to vote by at least four people, and they all happen to be Republican. I’m wondering if they really want me to vote so badly, would they want me to vote, even for Kerry? I think that if I vote, I will vote for Kerry just to offset these people’s votes. So I am asking you to vote in the comments section, should I vote, just so I can complain?

Oh, and btw, your vote don’t count, but please don’t even START to complain about me not voting if you don’t vote below.

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We we recorded Sunday, but didn’t get it all done. We have the acoustic and drums down for all the songs and vocals for one song. The E Guitar and Bass tracks went direct in and so we are going back so they can play through their miked amps. Besides that, I didn’t sleep much last night because I think Jaden might have a cold. Zzzzzzz…..

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This is what happens when you leave your kid at the Heikkinen’s…

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Here is a comment and my response on Trevor’s blog. I know that we may be talking past each other, but am I making sense?

dave said…
I don’t mean to step on Trevor’s toes with this as I have sort of jumped in on the conversation, but I just have to make a comment in regards to adam’s comment. First, I would agree that Christianity, the way, is the Gospel of grace. I am one who believes that we, as humans, are limited, born missing something, and, because of that, are flawed. While a significant part of our creator does exist within us we are missing that intimate connection with him. In my view, based on scripture (both the words and the meaning), this is heaven. Based on my experience and simple observation, this is what our souls long for, intimacy with our creator. A lot of different religions are striving for this, in lots of different ways. The way of Christ is to offer that connection through himself. Through him we are given that intimate connection with God, and then we go through our journey seeking to understand that relationship and that grace. I am one who usually believes Christ is who he said he was. I am also one who thinks that there are still many ways to get to God. Some require adherance to a moral code, others require observing specific rituals and traditions, following Christ requires leaning on him, the imitation of him follows as a result. I don’t think we have to even understand fully who he is, and doubting him is normal and expected. But leaning on him, and pursuing him is the key. This is how I see it. As always, I may be wrong.
But, contrary to what Adam suggests about the church and teaching the following of a moral code:
That is precisely what the church in America is teaching today, and has been for centuries. Even if a preacher doesn’t get up and say that “salvation” for lack of a better term, requires grace and then living “right” that is definately the message the church gets across (and many preachers do say exactly that). This is based on a lifetime of research. I grew up in protestant church and throughout my life have been in various places in various churches, catholic, charismatic, and protestant. I see it running through all kinds of christian literature and through the jargon that church people speak. So, to claim that the church preaches grace and not a moral code is just not true. If you will look a little closer at church history you will see that this conflict has been a consistent thread through christianity from the first century. Paul had to contend with trying to teach grace while the Jerusalem church wanted that gospel to include living according to the Hebrew moral code. That trend continues today as the church is quick to quote that we are “saved by grace, through faith” but then makes sure to include that we shouldn’t smoke, drink, or cuss (along with the other outwardly measurable things the “good christian folk” like to keep on the list of why they are better than the rest of the world). I’ll have to cut this thought short, but I am thinking I will be posting something along this vein on my blog soon as it is a pet peeve, and it is something I am always trying to understand better.
I’ll leave the rest of the arguement with Trevor as I have probably put in more of my opinion that is neccessary here. He and I may differ a bit on some of the finer points regarding human nature and grace, but maybe not. Regardless, different views are all part of the journey we are on and as soon as we quit learning and being challenged to explore then we may as well be dead.
Thanks for the opportunity to think out loud.

1:10 PM

Dan Price said…
Actually, I see Adam saying the exact opposite of that. He says that it is wrong-headed to think that we find salvation through the moral code of religious texts. Instead we find salvation from God’s grace through faith. By following “the way” that is really a works-based salvation. As far as there being moral teaching in the Bible, who will argue that there isn’t? But I don’t think that Adam is saying that we must follow these moral teachings to reach heaven. Instead we follow these moral teachings because we love God and want to be more than just “saved” we want to be followers of Christ. Am I making any sense?

1:28 PM

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The Triple T’s ( Tim, Trevor and Travis) have been in dialogue on several important issues concerning, salvation, the Bible, and basically “What it means to be a Christian” to follow Trevor’s original topic. So, although I feel incapable of voicing my opinions with the articulation and clarity of the Three T’s, I will throw this proverbial mud on the wall and see how much of it sticks (or I’ll just watch it slide down).

I am mostly responding to Trevor’s last post.

In regards to secular compassion as a vehicle for salvation-
(Trevor Said) “Of course simple compassion…is living up to God’s Best (we need no text to prove this it is in our guts) and even the inerrant text that would back such a claim is divided and provides no clear picture”

-My problem with this is that if feel just feel God’s Best in our “guts” we open our best actions to being the worst actions in other’s perspectives. For instance a terrorist could easily think that they are following “the way” in trying to please God, when they are really going against God. Suicide bombers aren’t acting selfishly, they have their “arms outstretched to God” in their minds and even though some might say “their aim is the same” their faith by what they believe negates the very core of what I personally think it means to follow God. What about religions who’s beliefs about “God’s Best” leads them to sacrificing their children? Is this a compatible belief with ours? I would think that to follow your logic you would have to say, “Yes.” Or you would have to make a list of acceptable religions (I’m hoping that some Native American religions make it because I think it would be cool.)

In regards to the fall-
I do not want to get into a discussion about whether people are born bad or become bad, but I think that we would all agree that there is bad in us to say the least.
One thing that I do agree very much with in Trevor’s post is his acknowledgement of God’s image into us. I think it is because of God’s imprint in us that we are “without excuse” as the Apostle Paul puts it because of how our soul resonates with His creation. It is interesting (and I know we have a different understanding of what the Bible is) that the scripture does not say “because God’s creation resonates with everyone’s soul, you are all partners in God’s salvation.” On the contrary, he says that we are without excuse. Just an observation.

In regards to Trevor’s “non-universalism”-
My question is “why not just be a Universalist?” It seems very intolerant of you to say that those who follow your list of Truth, Beauty, Love and Compassion somehow are “in” and those with no spiritual life could possible be “out.” (Note: you imply that this is a possibility by denying your position of Universalism, even though you don’t know what will happen to them) Why can’t someone’s spirituality be a religion of selfishness? Why can’t my religion be materialism? What makes Truth, Beauty, Compassion, and Love so great?

I see think kind of thinking very disturbing. It seems to me that Islam and Christianity are mutually exclusive in regards to salvation, unless you just pick what you “like” out of the core beliefs (yes, read “scriptures”). How do you decide what you will believe about Jesus? Do you just pick teachings that you like and leave out the ones where he makes the implication that he is “God”? And if he isn’t God, then aren’t their better teachers and even theologians who have written with more direct fervor the need to love our neighbors in a wholistic, redemptive way?

Oh an one other thing, as far as reading the Bible I totally agree that it is our story and we have made the mistake in the past of reading as a manual for our lives. And although, I do believe that “all scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching etc…” I think that the way people have used the Bible throughout our recent history has neglected to see the genres of writing and understand our story through that lens.

Anyway, I really like Trevor. I find him to be honest and in pursuit of God which is beautiful. I really like his tone of discussion and am looking forward to more dialogue in the future.

Comments?

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So “Ish” is recording this Sunday. I have to admit I’m a bit nervous. I feel good about two of our songs, ok about 1 and iffy on the other 2. We have one more practice on thursday night. We need to go through the songs without vocals because we will be recording everything live except for vocals. I just hope it works out and my voice isn’t too pitchy. I raised two of the songs a full step because my lower register is giving me pitch problems. We’ll see…

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Ok there is a really good conversation (of which a few of you are already partaking in) at Tim’s blog

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This is from http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/

“May I suggest a tolerance test?
a) Dump your old car oil on the beach and see if emerging people tolerate it.
b) Use the names on someones group email to sell your book, and see if the emerging people you are spamming tolerate it.
c) Dress up as prosperity preacher, fly to the poorest country in Africa and offer to preach in their churches. Take up an offering at every church. Tell the young believers that God will reward their generosity. Keep doing it until you have $20,000. Fly home on a first class flight and buy a new car with your profits. Then tell the emerging church people what you have done and see if they tolerate it.
Reality check: If i say something on my blog that is not right, judgment will come swiftly and harshly upon me, within hours, within minutes. We believe in right and wrong. We make value judgments based on right and wrong. We do not tolerate evil. Must not. I am not tolerating wrong teaching by standing up against it.

- Don’t believe in sin?
Then there should not be a problem with dropping bombs in Iraq.”

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